A simple & rational remark by Swami Agnivesh

News dated June 6, 2011: SRINAGAR:

A Kashmiri pundit body on Sunday demanded that social activist Swami Agnivesh be punished for his “blasphemous” remarks against pilgrimage to Amarnath cave.

The All Parties Migrant Coordination Committee (APMCC) also burnt an effigy of the social activist, who last month here had said that “he does not understand why people go for such yatras” and termed the “shivlingam” formed inside the Amarnath cave as a geographical phenomenon.

“We ask the Hindu countries of Nepal, Mauritius and India to boycott Swami Agnivesh,” APMCC chairman Vinod Pandit said.

Pandit also “warned” J&K CM Omar Abdullah and governor N N Vohra not to allow such “so called mahatmas” to enter J&K.

****

We Rationalists agree with Agnivesh when he says that the ‘Shivlingam’ formed inside the Amarnath cave is a natural phenomenon. He has expressed his surprise regarding why people go with such a craze to see this ice formation in the cave. He has expressed his opinion and never spoke about stopping the believers in any way. He has every right to speak.

One can only laugh at such intolerance among the religious! How flimsy their religion is, we wonder! …that this so-called ‘religious sentiments’ can be hurt and insulted so easily! If religion cannot give strength of conviction, if religion is hurt by a single person’s small remark—what is religion for?

We are with Agnivesh—an educated and renowned social worker who works for the poor tribal population of India.

Srai & HA

*****

[৬ জুনের খবর। কাশ্মীরী পন্ডিতদের এক অংশ স্বামী অগ্নিবেশ-এর উপর খাপ্পা। উনি বলেছেন—কেন যে এত লোক অমরনাথ দেখতে ভীড় করে – বুঝি না। ওখানকার ‘শিবলিঙ্গ’ টা তো একটা প্রাকৃতিক (ভৌগলিক) ঘটনা মাত্র। ব্যস! All Parties Migrant Coordination Committee (APMCC) অগ্নিবেশের কুশপুত্তলিকা দাহ করল। আরো বলল নেপাল, মরিশাস, ইন্ডিয়া-র মত হিন্দু দেশে অগ্নিবেশ কে বয়কট করা হবে!

পাগলের প্রলাপ! কে বলেছে ভারত হিন্দু দেশ? নেপাল ও আর নয়। আর ধার্মিকদের ধর্ম এত ঠুনকো? যে একজন ব্যক্তির একটা কথায় আঘাত লাগে? ধর্ম যদি শক্তি, সহনশীলতা না দেয়, তাহলে সে ধর্ম রাখা কেন বাপু? এত সহজে যাতে ফাটল ধরে, তাকে ভেঙ্গে ফেলাই ভালো।

যাই হোক, আমরা অগ্নিবেশের সঙ্গে একমত। উনি যা বলেছেন, তা যুক্তিসঙ্গত। অমরনাথের বরফের দন্ড প্রাকৃতিক কারণে বরফ গলে এবং জমে তৈরি হয়। কেউ দেখতে যেতে চাইলে যেতেই পারেন।

অগ্নিবেশ একজন শিক্ষিত সমাজসেবী; দরিদ্র আদিবাসী অঞ্চলে বহূদিন নিষ্ঠার সঙ্গে কাজ করছেন। আমরা ওনার পাশে আছি।]

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19 Responses to “A simple & rational remark by Swami Agnivesh”

  1. BIPU 9 June 2011 at 11:42 AM #

    Even I can not make out why people crazy about the piece of ice at Amarnath cave. My friend suggests me a home made way to see the Shivlingam: find out any old or unused fridge and open it, of course you will find pieces of ice exactly look like Shivlingam.

  2. suman 9 June 2011 at 1:35 PM #

    good post.

  3. Madhusudan Mahato 9 June 2011 at 3:07 PM #

    I agree with this.

  4. kallol 9 June 2011 at 5:13 PM #

    jini adivasi anchale nishthar sange kaj korchen,prakitik karone shivlinga gore otha ebong ta-ke ghire abeger birodhita korchen, jar karmakandake Srai/HA samarthan kare, tar kono bishes dharmio sampradayer besh-bhusa dharoner karon ki? ete dharmio guruder theke tini alada manush bujhte asubidha hay.

  5. A K Bairagi 10 June 2011 at 7:11 AM #

    স্রাই-এর কথা খুবই যুক্তিসঙ্গত। আমি একমত। আমরাও সবাই স্বামী অগ্নিবেশের পাশে আছি। উনি প্রকৃত দেশপ্রেমী।

  6. Profile photo of Sumitra Padmanabhan
    HUMANISTS' ASSOCIATION 10 June 2011 at 9:56 AM #

    Yes, Kallol– that’s why we specially mentioned the incident. Because of his dress Agnibesh may be mistaken to be a Hindu sadhu. But we’ve spoken to him.

    Uni “BOIRAGYO” er chinho hisabe chakri chhere somajseba bechhe nen o ei poshake shchhondo bodh koren. Kintu ajkal Guruder ja romroma o barbaronto — tate manush bibhranto hotei pare. Uni asole nastik. Jotodur jani Scottish Church College e Economics poraten ek somoye. Lagarh e protibad monche onar bhumika khub bhalo chhilo. Or kotha o kaj ke somorthon korte amader kono apottir karon hoyni akhon porjonto.

  7. pragun 11 June 2011 at 1:31 PM #

    onar dress er bapar ta amar o confusion chilo…thanks to sumitradi for clearing it..ar siblingor bepar e boli gato bachor dui dhore global worming er karon e ice heap ta ar proper shiblingor akar nichena bole jani. baba volanath ki tahole new look dharon korchen?

  8. asok kumar das 12 June 2011 at 3:44 AM #

    Like me in my own childhood days and like all imaginative people, my 3 year old grandson always flies in the sky of fantacy. When he finds a particular block of wood, he calls it a helicopter and starts rotating it above his head making oral sound of a flying copter. When he gets a piece of stone of agreeable shape he plays it a tortoise or a monkey as his mind likes. Like different groups of religios sects, he sometimes quarrels with his sister who imagines differently and says it a fish or a mangoe. Psychologists say such ‘make belief’ games of imagination helps to develop baby minds. When any practical adult like Swami Agnibesh points out the wrong and preach the truth, my grandson starts crying like religious fanatics have done in this occassion. It is not good to hurt the sentiment of the babies or religious people.
    Religious fantacy too is like such baby sentiment. An abnormal man or the babyself of an adult mind may think a doll as godess Makali and plays and speak with them just like my granddaughter does with her Barbee Doll.Hence it is not good to hurt the sentiments of the babies as well as of religious people.
    Any unexplained phenomenon is fancied by imaginative minds as a god or an act of god. Amarnath is a plaything like that. A beautiful game of imagination!Some adults whose perverted minds remained immatured, enjoy imagining the molehilllike piece of ice as a god’s sexual organ erected by freezing cold; while some dishonest people take the advantage of the weekness of heavengreedy hellterrorised people and make brisk holy business.There are such many other sources of religious fantacy.Butterflies are viewed as the God Projapoti and played in the Bengali weddings. Many innocent people worship a deformed human or a five legged cow as a god. Some people religiously throw stones to an object imagining it as a satan. A shadow of a tree in moonlight is imagined and feared by deformed minds as a ghost.
    Let the babies or religious people enjoy the joy of fantacy so long it does not make crusaders,karsevaks,talibans, terrorists etc or create any social problems. It is not good to reveal the truth and say my grandson that his tortoise is only a piece of stone, or my grand daughter that his Barbee is only an inanimate doll and the Amarnath tourists that the god’s holy sexual organ is nothing but a mere geographical phenomenon, a fruit of the act of nature which may gradually drooped or may be melted away altogether by contact of heat or the god will finally die one day with the advancement of global worming.
    Hence I cannot support Swami Agnibesh.
    Asokdas Charbak Phoenix,Arizona,U.S.A.
    RSVP asokdas.godless@gmail.com

  9. Gablu 12 June 2011 at 8:14 PM #

    I agree with SRAI.

  10. Dwijapada Bouri 13 June 2011 at 11:50 AM #

    Good post. I agree with SRAI

  11. kallol 14 June 2011 at 5:53 PM #

    It is not good to reveal the truth and ……Asok babur lekhar ei jaygata bojha galo na. amader bere ot-har sange je bhul, dhormio maulabad ittadi boye barachhi seguloki apna apni thik hoye jabe naki jara amader er muktir path dekhabe tader anusaran korbo. moulabadi chinta paribeshgato bhabei choto bela theke amader madhey dhuke jay ar boro hoey eta jakhan mahiruher akar dharan kare takhon karsevak, taliban ba terrorist der amader die kono ku-karma karano kono bapari noy. Babri dhangsa akta udaharan. erokam bahu udaharan prithibimoy charie ache. Tai choto bela thekei uchit sathik sekhano. Srai/Ha tader nirantar kajer madhay die amader prokrito manush hoye ot-har chesta kore jachhe.

  12. asok kumar das 14 June 2011 at 8:59 PM #

    My Dear Kallol and all such beloved Kallols,
    A satirist like me is often misunderstood like this occassion. The fault is not of you, but of my language. To declare boldly that TRUTH MUST ALWAYS BE SEARCHED AND REVEALED, I say just the opposite – ‘it is not good to reveal the truth’.When I want to say it is our humanly duty to hurt any kinds of religious sentiments, I write (as done in my 12th June comments)” it is not good to hurt the sentiments of the babies and religious people”.In fact I have another secret agenda to say that religious people has undevelopped minds like those of the babies.I am as crooked as that.Thank you for giving me the opportunity to dispel the misunderstanding. .Asokdas Charbak, Phoenix, Arizona, U.S.A. RSVP: asokdas.godless@gmail.com

  13. kallol 15 June 2011 at 1:59 PM #

    Thanks Asok Babu. It was my fault to understand the particular sentence of the article. Hope to see more satired articles like this in future.

  14. Sanjiv Sharma 25 June 2011 at 4:32 AM #

    This is not the occasion to discuss why religion is more rational system of knowledge than so-called rationalism. To presume that rationalism as a philosophical system is limited within only science is undermining rationalism itself. And at the same time the psyche of scientific is also full of instances of prejudices and conservatisms. But just want to comment on Swami Agnivesh’s statement. He is an Arya Samaji. Arya Samajis don’t believe in idol worship. So he can comment on Amarnath like that. But imagination of a person or personality in a symbol or image is something we always do. That is how visual culture works. To say that photographs are just chemicals and grass, videos are just petroleum products doesn’t serve any rational purpose. Had it been just like that we wouldn’t have hung images of expired parents on the wall nor did we enjoy any films or paintings.

    We surly connect our emotions to those chemicals, grass and petroleum products. Without that and form of art and media is wasteful. That is why few pigments on a cotton rag (oil paintings) are so expensive and hangs on the galleries and museums. Millions of currencies are spent to protect those in terms of conservation and security. That is only because we value the content which triggers certain kind of “imaginations”.

    When we talk of idols as gods whatever may be the form, at some point of time or in due course of time it has triggered imagination of some god in it. They are like abstract paintings. I am using this analogy because I expect nonbelievers will at least understand the significance of abstract form of art or visual culture.

    So, when Agnivesh says such thing that surly hurts people who visualize Shiva in that ice formation. I don’t think there is any irrationality in it. If that is so, then every abstract art is irrational. For that matter, when Hussain paints naked goddess he also fails to understand that as he has every right to paint his mother naked in public similarly his siblings can find it humiliating and they have every right to protest against it.

    I don’t subscribe to any kind of violence and condemn it vehemently over here. But unfortunately politics also has its own games to play for his electorates likewise Hussain was possibly playing to his gallery to gain some quick popularity when he almost became insignificant in the contemporary art scene.

    Finally, I totally respect the act of exposing frauds. This is an extremely commendable job done. Fake religiosity has nothing to do with religion.

  15. asok kumar das 29 June 2011 at 1:55 AM #

    AMARNATH IS A GEOGRAPHICAL PHENOMENON ONLY

    Shri Sanjoy Sharma raised many confusing questions which need to be clarified. Let me zoom on those one by one, describe what I view and explain how my stupid brain reacts.
    Firstly, he says that “religion is more rational system of knowledge than ‘so called’ rationalism” and that science is “full of instances of prejudices and conservatism”. He however did not define his idea on ‘rational system’ and neither he sited a single example of prejudices or conservatism. Religion, as I know,and all sensible people know, never promote knowledge, rather it blocks knowledge. (Example-supression of the knowledge of Copernicus, Gallilio, Bruno,Darwin,Charbak) Religion preaches us to believe the knowledge those acquirred thousands of years ago when even wisest people had far less knowledge of natural laws than primary students know.But science and rationalism on the other hand teach us to doubt any knowledge so far acquirred even by scintific research.Search of truth never ends.It is a continual and everlasting process.Please allow me to clarify with one or two examples. The ancient wise men believed that ‘satans’trespass into our bodies resulting diseases and wrote religioous books accordingly.Almost all people of those days believed such premitive knowledge.But the rationalist nonbelievers doubt those written in the holy books and after prolonged research found that it is not the witches or satans but the germs are responsible for the diseases. The quest for knowledge did not stop at this point too. After further search it was found that different allergens, genetic disorders etc are similarly responsible for the disease. Further research may reveal more truth in future.If we would believe what the ancient wisemen taught and call for the gunins, purhits etc to blow away the satanic winds by religious mantras,we would die of many diseases now become curable by science and the Sun would still moves round the Earth.Also our daughters would marry before puberty as directed by the God.So we and all believers including Shri Sharma do not in fact believe in the holy Sashtras. No Sharmas believe the holy shastras those say the Satis should be burnt alive along with their dead husbands. All Sharmas are indeed non believers.He is a siner like all nonbelirvers,like all rationalists and like me.
    Religion teaches us that search for knowledge has been completed hundredes years before. There is no knowledge beyond what is written in the Geeta, Koran or Bible.On the other hand science teaches us to doubt all the present science books-all the scientific theories so far proved true. Even an individual scientist teaches to doubt his own findings. Hence Science and Rationlism is not ‘dogmatic’ and ‘full of prejudices and conservatism’ but Religion is. In fact “RELIGION BEGINS WHEN RATIONALITY AND HUMANITY ENDS.” Knowledge is enemy of religion.
    2. However I agree with Shri Sharma that the Amarnath piece of ice is an ‘imagination’ of the penis (linga) of Shiv. The imaginative spiritual people enjoy to ‘visualise’ the beauty and increase their punya balance in their devine accounts. Being terrorised by the idea of the Hell no religious people dare to admit that the devine sexual organ is nothing but an imagination of poetic minds – a fantacy, if not a perverted fantacy. Also agree that it is a visual art – a nude art, what is however not created by human artists of Khjuraholike temples, or by a godless artists like Fida Hussain, but by the God – the nature. Shri Sharma and his tribe should not raise any objection when Swami Agnibesh says that the art of Amarnath is a geographycal i.e. natural phenomenon.
    3. Regarding the comment on Hussain’s painting, I like to say that if depiction of nacked godess hurt religious sentiments,the nacked show of the devine sexual organ at Amarnath cave should also hurt weak religious minds and people would cover the piece of ice with a cloth or chiching bundh the cave altogether. In the holy Hindu literature we can see thousands of instances where sexual organs and sexual activities of gods and godesses like Krshna-Radha,Shiv-Parbotis are so vividly described and illustrated that it becomes difficult to defferenciate holy literature and pornography. Even the parents (perhaps Sri Sarmas included)do not feel humiliating to sing or hear the kirtan describing holy private affairs (even unsocial and unethical)of Radha-Krisna or Jagannat-Debdashis. I invite Shri Sharmas to imagine the statue of the Shibalinga along with the whole body of Shib or of a Parboti. (Shri Sharmas have no trouble to worship the Shibalinga and Shib separately but feel embarrassed when view jointly.This appears to be hypocracy.)Hence Shri Sharma need not feel emberassed to enjoy the paintings of Hussain along with his siblings. Sri Sharma is surly not more religious than the ancient wise Rishis who imagined,composed and illustrated the holy books with details of nacked activities of gods.
    4.Regarding motive of Hussain: Hussain is so popular that Sri Sharma need not guess the ‘possibility’ of Hussain’s motive that is to gain ‘quick popularity’. Proofless aligation of a ‘possible’ offence is nothing but an act of a criminal.
    5. I cannot understand the difference between ‘fake religiosity’ and ‘religion’ as Shri Sharma attempted to differentiate. I think ‘religion’,as we generally understand is always and always a fake one as fake as all the godmen of all the ages.
    6. I along with Sri Sharma “totaly respect the act of exposing frauds” – the frauds committed by religious propagators exposed by Swami Agnibesh. Fraudes committed by religious traders by selling Amarnath is really exposed by the Swami.
    7. Lastly I may assure Shri Sharma that only the nonbelievers and not believers fully and honestly ‘understand the significance of abstract form of art (like Amarnath ice art) and culture’ and that religious ideas, religious literature,religious art are abstract imagination and not concrete or true. I, in fact enjoy such religious fantacy along with Arabian Nights, Children comics like Batman, Aranyadeb,Spiderman etc. etc.
    Asokdas Charbak.
    Los Angelos,USA
    RSVP: asokdas.godless@gmail.com

  16. Wiseman 2 July 2011 at 3:57 PM #

    Hi,

    Just to correct something.

    The Koran clearly mentions that understanding of knowledge mentioned in Koran will reveal itself for each time period and generation ,it is written already . It is but limited for human cognizance to understand everything without gods will.

    Even Big Bang theory is clearly mentioned in it which got accepted after the scientific experiment.

    If one spends some time understanding it with rationality, scientific base and not blind faith or hard beliefs,emotions ..he might get enlightened.

    For it we need some time among all the noise..but its worthwhile .

  17. asok kumar das 10 July 2011 at 10:41 PM #

    While correcting my 29th June submission on uselessness of the holy books, Mr. Wiseman made us understand that:
    1. The gods discriminates, prefers some and hates some of his children.
    2. A god does not love everybody.
    3. A god does not ‘will’everybody understand the a holy book.
    4. Although everything is wriiten in the Koran, everybody cannot understand it.
    5. And so it is useless to read the holy book by everybody except those preferred by a god.
    6. All scientific theories, including the Big Bang which is discovered by god hundreds of years before and is ‘clearly’ written in the Koran. It is useless to run the scientific laboratories and continue research for more knowledge of nature. Because everything and everything is there in the Koran.
    7. The Koran is not static and its teachings are not unchangable or final. Rather it is dinamic and just like a mirror changing its reflection everytime according to the changed matter (knowledge) reflected on it. ” It reveals itself” with change of ” time period and generation” and with the possession of moderner knowledges.
    8. All knlowledges which will acquirred by secular irriligious scientists (who are not willed by the god to understand the Koran) in future are also written in the Koran and will be revealed by the Koran (as occured in case of Big Bang theory) as soon as it is found in the secular laboratories.(In fact the planet where life exists, or the drug to cure cancer is written in the holy book waiting to be revealed when it wiill be found in the laboratories.)The Bing Bang theory, that is clearly mentioned in the Koran may be deleted from the holy book when the Bing Bang theory may proved wrong one day by further research.
    9.WE SHOULD DOUBT WHAT WE UNDERSTAND BY READING THE KORAN AND SHOULD ACCEPT IT TO BE TRUE ONLY “WITH RATIONALITY, SCIENTIFIC BASE AND NOT BLIND FAITH OR HARD BELIEFS, EMOTIONS.”

    Perhaps I have not misunderstand Mr Wiseman. If so, please do not hasitate to point out in this debating forum.

    Let me thank Mr Wiseman by helping us being wiser.

    Asokdas Charbak
    Phoenix,Arizona, U.S.A.
    asokdas.godless@gmail.com

  18. Dwijapada Bouri 20 July 2011 at 11:06 AM #

    Good post.

  19. Ricky 2 August 2013 at 4:26 AM #

    Mr Das,
    How did you learn so much from Mr. Wiseman? He never mentioned most of the things that you already understood. 😉 Your understanding is awesome!
    4>>> If there is a book, may be a novel, do you really think that everybody will understand that?
    6>>> If you get a complete book, does it really mean that you should not do further research? Where does Koran (or Mr Wiseman) say that?
    8>>> Don’t you think you overwritten this? :-)This is what we call being hyper! When it comes to Holy books, Koran has never been changed, still its worth understanding. You don’t worry, there are research scholars doing research work on Koran…
    For rest of the lines, i.e. 1,2,3 etc, I hope you already know that you just bluffed!


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